Micellar casein

[colossus]

Hi, kerry

Do you use milk protein concentrate in Pro-Peptide which is around 80% casein and 20% whey. As I have seen other brands list it like that i.e Reflex.

Or is it 100% casein? (I know there is a whey blend and egg white in it too)

Cheers John.

[colossus]

kk - Hiya John, lets have a reality check, I know what I am talking about and I can discuss nutrition with anyone up to a certain level, when you get into the biochemistry that is required to formulate state of the art (anyone can throw some flavouring into cheese based whey) proteins like Pro Peptide and Pro MR, you need someone who has revolutionised the industry. Rather than me go on and on about the most knowledgable man I have ever met (I have attached his CV) and believe me, this man formulated MetRx for Scott Connolly when MetRx were a cutting edge company, they have since been sold to a baby food company, you can make your mind up on their current products! He formulated for Joe Weider, there is nobody in the protein industry that doesn't know who Phil Connolly is he is my partner in CNP.

I thought your question was a good opportunity for me to get Phil to answer it so here is his CV and his answer.

Education
Biochemistry at University of California at Berkeley

Experience

• Over 30 years of experience in the Development and Application of proteins
• Holds more than 20 U.S. and Worldwide Patents covering Protein Applications
• Worked for over 5 years in R&D for the US milk protein pioneer, Western Dairy Products
• 3 years as Senior Research Scientist, New Zealand Dairy Board
• 4 years as Vice President of R&D for the world's largest wheat processor
• Invented TMP, milk protein isolate, for New Zealand
• Invented the world's first wheat protein isolate
• Owner and founder of the first company in the US to sell a milk protein concentrate. The company was also the first to sell whey protein isolate and micellar casein.
• Expertise in protein consumption/metabolism
• Extensive experience in weight loss, health, and sports nutrition products
• Guest Lecturer at Fitness Expos, etc.
• Author of magazine articles as well as being the subject of numerous magazine articles
• Experience in protein applications in bars and RTD products

ProPeptide, Pro MR, ProDessert, and Pro Ms are all made using micellar casein powder (and, of course, whey protein, egg protein, and peptide bonded glutamine). The micellar casein is in a low temperature processed, undenatured form. For that matter, so is the whey protein that we use. We have tried to match the casein to whey protein balance that is found in human maternal milk - approximately 50% micellar casein and 50% native structure (completely undenatured) whey protein. Cow's milk contains a balance of approximately 82% casein and 18% whey protein - a ratio that's good for a cow, but not the ideal ratio for human beings. That is why we start with micellar casein powder and blend it with the only whey protein manufactured in the world that has been filtered straight from skim milk without addition of chemicals or high heat pasteurization to the milk as happens in cheese manufacture and/or casein manufacture. Why is that important?

If you have read many ads for protein powders, then you must have seen the buzz words, "bioactive" or "bioactivity". What does that really mean? In essence, the bioactive parts of a protein are the most anabolic parts of the protein. Many proteins contains bioactive parts that will stimulate a cascade of hormone production when detected in the body as well as strengthen the immune system and stimulate protein synthesis. The problem is, however, that the bioactive parts of proteins are the parts that are most easily denatured during protein manufacture. Once denatured, these proteins lose their bioactivity and are not as anabolic for you. For casein, if it is in its micellar structure (undenatured), there are certain stomach enzymes that fit into the micellar casein structure like a key. When they fit into the structure, they release bioactive peptides from the casein like casomorphins. Caseinates do not form the same structure in the stomach and, thus, these enzymes cannot fit into the caseinate and cannot release bioactive casein peptides. The same principle holds true for whey proteins. The most informative and most oft cited study on whey proteins, Bounous and Gold, compared a truly undenatured whey protein (Product X), filtered directly from skim milk, to whey proteins that had been manufactured from cheese whey. They also included casein in their study as a control. The results of their study showed that only Product X (the whey protein made direct from skim milk) was significantly bioactive (anabolic). The whey proteins from cheese whey (all of those they studied) did not perform anywhere close to Product X. In fact, the cheese whey proteins didn't perform any better than casein in the measurements of bioactivity during the study. Bounous and Gold proved that whey protein manufactured from cheese whey has lost much of its bioactivity (due to denaturation) and, at the same time, proved that a whey protein made directly from skim milk with no denaturation is bioactive and, therefore, will be anabolic for you.

You might be asking, "But aren't there quite a few undenatured whey proteins available right now?". The answer is, "No". Almost all whey protein in the world is made from cheese whey or casein whey. We say, "almost all" because our whey protein is made directly from skim milk. To the best of our knowledge, nobody else can make that claim. their whey comes either from cheese whey or casein whey. They try to confuse you with claims of undenatured and offer, as proof, a claim that their whey protein is water soluble. Water solubility is not a measurement of denaturation - it is only a measurement of how soluble that protein is in water - nothing more. The definition of protein denaturation is: If a protein has undergone a structural change due to changes in environmental pH, or chemical reaction, or heat, then that protein is denatured. Once denatured, the bioactivity is gone. because whey from casein or cheese manufacture has undergone heat treatment at temperatures above the denaturation temperature of the most bioactively valuable fractions of whey protein (bovine serum albumin, immunoglobulins, alpha lactalbumin) and undergone pH changes significant enough to denature lactoferrin and lactoperoxidase, as well as undergone a few chemical reactions from the chemicals that have been aded to the milk and wheys to make them process easier, it is scientifically impossible to manufacture an undenatured whey protein from cheese whey or casein whey. Any person or company that tries to convince you that whey protein from cheese whey can be completely native in structure, with all fractions represented as they would be in milk and retaining their bioactivity, either has a poor understanding of protein chemistry or they are trying to fool you.

WE aren't trying to fool you. We use the most natural form proteins that can be found on this earth - micellar casein and whey protein that is manufactured direct from skim milk in much the same manner as Product X from the study of Bounous and Gold. These are true undenatured proteins and they are found in the same structure and the same ratio as you would find them in human milk. There is no better a protein matrix for a human being that is GROWING

[colossus]

Hi, Kerry thanks for the explanation, much appreciated Big Smile

I wasn't having a go at anyone and I know you know more than most when it comes to nutritional advise. I know Phil is one of the best brains, when it comes to protein in this industry too.

I believe Pro-Peptide to be the best protein supplement on the market for the many points you and Phil have stated.

I just thought I would put the question to you. Anyway thanks again for a full answer.

John.

[colossus]

kk - Honest mate, you didnt upset me, I just thought your question was a great opportunity to introduce the knowledge and backup CNP have, ie. Phil Connolly.

[colossus]

Hi Kerry

Following on from the composition of ProPeptide, would "cooking" with it (e.g. in warm porridge, or baked goods) destroy the valuable protein fractions? In other words would the heat of an oven make the protein content less viable?

I ask because i came across a recipe for flapjacks and was thinking of adding protein powder to increase the protein content. Would this be a good idea? (I know that CNP offers high protein flapjacks but since I am on a severely limited budget.....)

Thanks

[colossus]

kk - The only way a whey protein can be truly undenatured is if it is filtered directly from skimmed milk - no chemical changes (ph, adding acid to extract) and no heat pasteurisation over 60 degrees C. The whey proteins in Pro Peptide meet this criteria, all other whey proteins are derived from cheese whey so if you now heat our Pro Peptide in porridge or baking with it, depending upon how hot it get, you will denature the valuable growth factors.

Adding it to something that is already hot (ie. porridge) is ok as long as it has cool well below 60 degrees C

[colossus]

Ok mate, no worries Wink

Cheers again.

John.

[colossus]

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.

Have already ordered a bag of ProPeptide and a box of ProDessert. Will let you know how I get on.

Also since I just missed your last seminar at Betta Bodies (saw the mail the next day!) I would like to ask are you planning any more any time soon?



Thanks

[colossus]

great answer and a lot of info, will have to read it more than once to get it all.

[colossus]

kk - I know you will find a difference with Pro Peptide. You'll also find you will assimilate it far better.

I'm getting into a busy period as we speak, bodybuilding, boxing and other sports but I will try and do another seminar soon and will give you all plenty of notice.

[colossus]

Hi Kerry,

Are there any plans to flim a seminar again? like the one in 2001 which I have on VHS lol. There was some good info on that and I like the way you explained the uses of protein.

Brain, Dorian and John were on it too with Ernie Taylor guest posing.

It would be great to see Phil Connolly on it too with his expertise in the protein industry. A Q and A with him would be priceless Surprise

John.

[colossus]

What about Pay per View Podcasts, downloadable from this site. Pay via Paypal. 5 - 10 minute, for a fiver or so.
Oops, just stumbled across a fantastic idea for you Kerry. All future royalties credited to my CNP account please.
Steve

[colossus]

Don't give him ideas CNP make enough money as it is lol.

Nice try Steve Big Smile

[colossus]

kk - Because of all the bull*** that other supplement companies are coming out with (selling cheese whey and claiming its an undenatured protein when the definition of denaturing is changing the natural structure of the molocule by altering the PH or pasteurising the milk at 72 degrees C, we CNP extract our whey protein at low temperature and this process was developed by Phil Connolly who still holds over 20 US patents) we are going to bring Phil Connolly over to do a seminar and yes I will publicise it heavily. Believe me, this is one seminar you must not miss, the man is a genius.

You are joggin my memory re:2001 seminar, remind me where was it and obviously I know you mate (topman), who are you?

[colossus]

Hi Kerry. Is there a difference between the Pro-Peptide formula and your original Chemical Warfare protein (can't remember what it was called) and the other, ahem, similar blends available? I seem to remember Paul Borreson talking about the amino ratios closely matching that found in muscle tissue, but above you mentioned trying to get as close to mothers milk as possible. Just curious really.
I admit I have never tried Pro-pep, I normally opt for whatever is available cheap online, but I do feel that the blends (even the cheaper ones) are better than whey alone.
Cheers,
Pete.

ps, I remember a seminar you did at Reps gym, Preston, along with John and Ernie years ago, just before Dorian got involved with Chemical I think. How time flies....

[colossus]

Hi, kerry

That sounds great. It would be even better if the seminar was filmed and put on DVD with Phil Connolly on it.

The seminar was on Thursday 4th October 2001 at Skyline gym Catford London and I have it on VHS. It was four weeks out from the 2001 British grand prix.

You don't know me mate, at least to my knowledge lol. I am just a average guy who trains and likes taking the best supplements on the planet. I haven't ever competed but there is always time I guess, but really I just workout to look and feel better. There are so many benefits to weight training as you know mate.

I look forward to the seminar anywayWink

Cheers again John.

[colossus]

kk - There is a massive difference in Pro Peptide and the protein that we used to sell 7-8 years ago, Pro Peptide is the only truly undenatured protein on the market, that means it is not a whey protein that is a by product of the manufacturing of cheese, nor is the casein being extracted from milk by adding acid and altering its PH. it is in its natural form, that is why it is called Micellar Casein, we have added peptide bonded glutamine (not L-glutamine) so that the glutamine can be absorbed with other proteins, L-glutamine would not be absorbed with other proteins as it is molecularly too light. we have added some egg white for the amino acid cystine, another very important amino acid and we culture our milk with pro-biotics so that there is a viable count.

As the whey is extracted under cold process and not a by product of cheese and the micellar casein are both in their natural form, all the growth factors are intact which is very important to the human body.

Cows milk is about 80% casein, 20% whey, this is designed for cows, mothers milk is about 50-50 and so is our Pro Peptide, If anyone out there has children you will know that the mid wife wanted your wife/girlfriend to ***feed, this is because mothers maternal milk is in its natural state and babies bottle milk has also been heat treated. Pro Peptide is also in its natural state.

You are the customer, it is your choice but the Boiree study proved that 40% of pure whey gets oxidised by the liver, the remaining 60% has been denatured in the manufacturing of cheese, if you are not happy with your recent gains maybe you are not getting the amount and quality of protein you require.

Yes, I remember the seminar at Rep's gym, god, long time ago.

[colossus]

kk - I know you now John, please introduce yourself if we are ever at the same venue. the Skyline gym is owned by a very old friend of mine Kimberley, I remember big steve from there as well. thanks for the compliment on the supplements.

[colossus]

No problem Kerry will do.

Keep up the great work mate.

[colossus]

Hi,
Great explanation about pro-peptide. The importance of undenatured protein and high qaulity are emphasised comparing it with other branded products on the market. My question is why use an artificial sweetner (sucralose)? Have you considered using a natural sweetner or at least offering an un-sweetened version. A few major brands offer a natural version of their products, I'm sure this will be popular.

[colossus]

Hi,
Great explanation about pro-peptide. The importance of undenatured protein and high qaulity are emphasised comparing it with other branded products on the market. My question is why use an artificial sweetner (sucralose)? Have you considered using a natural sweetner or at least offering an un-sweetened version. A few major brands offer a natural version of their products, I'm sure this will be popular.

kk - Good question, in reality though it just wouldn't sell, there are a few hard core bodybuilders that would use a product unsweetened but there are a lot of other sports that use Pro Peptide and pro MR, there are even some people who don't train use it as they have found that it helps combat distended stomachs.

Im going to show your question to Phil Connolly and get his opinion too.

[colossus]

Thanks KK, I'd appreciate that. I would purchase a naturally sweetened/unsweetened pro-peptide. I read about of a couple of natural alternatives - stevia and luo han (marketed as PureLo).

[colossus]

wasnt it skyline gym,somewhere down southTongue Tied
it would be good filming a seminar,maybe give us gym owners some freebies,to educate customers with.
another ideaIdea pop a free disc in with say[flex] fantastic marketing and advertising.
as a gym owner-you wouldnt believe the lack of knowledge out there,
people often ask-whats protein-whats carbs and they are frightened to death of the word fat.
people still think doing situps 6 weeks b 4 their holidays,will turn fat into muscleCrying
anything to help us sell more products

[colossus]

Thanks KK, I'd appreciate that. I would purchase a naturally sweetened/unsweetened pro-peptide. I read about of a couple of natural alternatives - stevia and luo han (marketed as PureLo).



kk - As I said earlier in the post I would get Phil Connolly (the greatest protein expert I have ever met, look at his CV on this thread) to have a look and his reply is below, basically he agrees with me



"Kerry, That's about right. I have formulated "natural" powders for some other people. Sales are generally less than 1% of Vanilla or Chocolate. Eventually, they all dropped the natural flavor. The number of people who really care about that is a minute part of the customer base - unfortunately." Phil Connolly

[colossus]

wasnt it skyline gym,somewhere down southTongue Tied
it would be good filming a seminar,maybe give us gym owners some freebies,to educate customers with.
another ideaIdea pop a free disc in with say[flex] fantastic marketing and advertising.
as a gym owner-you wouldnt believe the lack of knowledge out there,
people often ask-whats protein-whats carbs and they are frightened to death of the word fat.
people still think doing situps 6 weeks b 4 their holidays,will turn fat into muscleCrying
anything to help us sell more products.Stick out tongue

kk - God, that was years ago, skyline gym, I remember. Phil Connolly (look at the micellar casein thread) is going to fly in June or July and I am going to set a big seminar up and get it filmed and we will be able to explain why we are the only truly undenatured protein on the market and how important it is. Yes we will film it.

[colossus]

Great stuff kerry.

So it will be available on DVD then in the summer? Big Smile

John.

[colossus]

kk - We will make sure it is.